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The future of turtles may be in danger.

The future of turtles may be in danger.




Climate change in Florida is creating only female turtles.


www.wftv.com/news/9-inves...


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RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




It's a good time to be a male turtle...…. Frog


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




Humans have been destroying the earth for 300,000 years now. Sea turtles have been around for one hundred and ten million years, but suddenly in the last 7years there is an alarming crisis !!!!

If you believe in the law of averages, sea turtles will be around long after we humans are long gone.

Or maybe these florida females just need to meet the right jersey boys !!!!

#worldisn'tendingtodaykids
#nextgreaticeage



RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




Seems a increase in females will lead to a increase in nests. 1 male can service many females. These turtles have been around thru numerous ice ages and much warmer periods. They’ll adapt.
More concerning is the trash and chemicals we dump into the ocean. But that’s never pushed as you can’t tax it as easy as carbon, or use it to push globalization. We’re seeing bass is PA being born with both sex organs, despite our water being cleaner than ever. Yet all the sewage plants just pass all the chemicals from the ton of pills that the majority of Americans take.
We’re screwing the world over alright, but our effect on the climate is the least if it.


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




Florida could use more babes on the beach instead of dudes who just think they are.


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




We just need to relax...everything will be just fine including our eastern turtles, specially in Fla. now that they have removed the state from oil drilling or Sound Testing list. All the other states on the East Coast are been targeted including NC! Serious smiley


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




Oh Jimmy, you had to know how this thread would go when you mentioned climate change...

Quote from the article:
"Warming seas and sand temperatures are shifting the balance in sea turtle populations, creating generations with almost no male turtles."

So basically, since these turtles have a 25 year mature breeding, we need to start developing a blue pill for all the old males that will be the only males 15 years from now because only females are being born...

Sorry, bad joke. For those stating that this has happened before and they survived just fine. I totally agree. The difference is the time span. It's happening much shorter time span than before. Nobody knows if nature can adapt that fast...

John


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




For those stating that this has happened before and they survived just fine. I totally agree. The difference is the time span. It's happening much shorter time span than before. Nobody knows if nature can adapt that fast...

John

J4yDubs


Ding ding ding! The planet has absolutely seen periods of drastic climate change, but we've never uncovered any evidence that suggests that the rate of warming that has occurred in the last ~150 years has ever been seen before.

We simply don't know how the oceans and atmosphere will react to what is an unprecedented rate of CO2 increase and subsequent climate change.


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




Not just the Turtles.
As much as we screw with the environment
I believe we should all start thinking like this article talks about.
We owe all animals a way to retreat or move around.
Makes sense to me.


Click to follow link...


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




thanks for the link fishinbait. really good article.


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




Not just the Turtles.
As much as we screw with the environment
I believe we should all start thinking like this article talks about.
We owe all animals a way to retreat or move around.
Makes sense to me.


Click to follow link...

Fishinbait


A great article and thanks for the link. I'm all for "share" vs "plunder"!


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




Reading through the article and seeing a few glaring weaknesses/questions . . .

1. The article does not mention that sea turtles mate out in the open ocean and will travel upwards of 1500 miles to get to the right beach to lay their eggs - takes them weeks to get there.So females from a beach that produces only females will easily encounter male turtles from other beaches in the world.

2. A single female will lay up to 8 clutches of eggs throughout the season at different times. This diversifies the temp and environmental conditions that her eggs are subjected to over the course of 3-4 months, which present a fairly broad range of temps and conditions.

3. When the temp is between 80-85, it produces all males . . . seems to be more problematic to be colder than warmer.

4. When the temp is between 85-88, the clutch produces almost all females with the occasional male.

5. When the temp is over 88, the clutch only produces females.

6. When the temp is in the upper 90's (like 97), they embryos dies.

7. Interesting that there's not a single temp zone in which there's an even mix of females and males. It's either all male or all female.Under ideal conditions, a single 100 egg clutch would produce 99 females and 1 male.

8. The article makes a bold, but unsubstantiated claim that the turtles are not able to keep up with the pace of climate change. How do they know? Is the overall population dwindling or growing? And by that I don't mean just focusing on Florida, because adapting to climate change involves being able to succeed by changing behaviors or increasing population in one area which offsets the declines in another. According to this 2017 study of the global sea turtle population, all 7 species of sea turtles are experiencing significant population growth Click to follow link... Largely attributed to conservation efforts, that's a real good thing, but it completely undermines the article's statement that the turtles are not adapting to climate change. It appears they are.

9. Again, back to the temps . . . if one looks at average temps in Florida over the past 100 years, which I did using official temps only (Click to follow link...), the average July (the hottest month) temp has increased only 1 degree in the past 100 years. I averaged 10 years starting in 1895 and the last 10 years ending in 2018 and compared them. Only a 1.08 degree increase.Given the tone of that article, you would have thought it was a 10 degree increase. No context at all around just how sensitive turtles are flipping back and forth between males and females with a just 1 degree separating them.

It's all about context and perspective. This article seemed more interested in using a natural occurrence to scare people and to make unsubstantiated claims. The higher level reality is that turtles are rebounding and are healthier than in decades thanks to conservation efforts. Climate change, with naturally occurring warming and cooling cycles, will always affect turtles swinging their populations between females and males, and it appears they were designed to do exactly that.

advances.sciencemag.org/c...


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




Reading through the article and seeing a few glaring weaknesses/questions . . .

marylander


Nice post, but there are some "weaknesses". smiley

1. This isn't true. "Both males and females will migrate to nesting areas to breed, generally in the area where they were born." Click to follow link...

2. The article states ""In the last decade, we’ve had seven years of 100% females," Wyneken said.". I don't know thier full methodology for determining this, so it could be wrong, but it contradicts your point.

3 - 7. These seem to be the same point so I'll group them. All males does seem to be more problematic, but that's not what's happening, so that's not what's being discussed. If it were happening, you can be sure that it would be discussed as a problem.

8. From the article: "When a nest is warm, most of the hatchlings will be female. But the quip is also a warning of what could be a species in decline." Key words are "what could be". It is an unknown and they are not saying this is a statement of fact. As for the second part of your point, the scientist are saying these findings are for the area being studied. A warning for that area. Maybe you're OK with there being fewer turtles in Florida as long as there are more somewhere else? Seems like a strange statement to make, but OK. I know I'd be sad if NC lost most of it's turtle population, so I'm sure people in Florida would be also. There's also possible consequences with other species in the area that feed on the turtles (mainly the babies).

9. The temp being referred to is the nest temp or egg temp. Since they are underground they will be buffered/insulated. This means a small change in air temp can have a large effect in the nest, especially over time. I'm not sure why you thought they were talking about a 10 degree increase in air temp?

Climate change, with naturally occurring warming and cooling cycles, will always affect turtles swinging their populations between females and males, and it appears they were designed to do exactly that.

marylander

Again, the article even states that there are warming and cooling cycles, the problem is that we seem to be in a warming cycle that is happening much faster than it has in the past. It take time for nature to adapt...

Good discussion.

John


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




Response to John...

1. What I said is true. Males travel for thousands of miles and hang out at the nearest nesting ground mating with any females who return to the grounds where they were born. Males don't return. So any one nesting area won't be at risk for population collapse just because of a trend of female clutches. And males are very aggressive, mating with as many females as they can catch. So the population thrives better when there are lots of females around.

Click to follow link...

2. I would challenge their methodology. My point is valid. Given the length of the season, there's no way temps average over 88 for the entire season triggering all female clutches. Their sampling requires taking eggs into the lab and maturing them far enough to sex them. In other words, sample size is too low to make sweeping statements like 'only females' born in any year. They didn't provide the proper context with the sampling size data. Weak.

3-7 the most important takeaway is that there's never a mix of females and males. Its either/or. All female or all Male. The only exception is at 88 degrees and then it's a single male surrounded by 100 or more females. Point being, they make this big deal over all females, but that's just normal.
In other parts of the world, it's all males, they find each other and make it work. Lots of hyperbole with no proof and no global population decline to back it up. Weak science.

8. They do clearly and inaccurately state that turtles are not keeping up with climate change. Unsubstantiated nonsense.

And yes, I am fine with animals adapting by migrating to places that better meet their needs. That how it happens throughout history. It's not sad, its resilience at it's best and most wonderful. Growing up in Marylander, I never saw half of the animals I see regularly today... hummingbirds, Canadian geese, eagles, deer, coyotes, bear, foxes, owls, pelicans, turkeys, etc. I love having them and more around knowing things change over time. I hate when man made pollution affects wildlife like it has. I am a huge conservationist in that regard and really want clean rivers, streams and lakes, and especially want clean oceans. That said, co2 is not a pollutant. And a slightly warmer world is much better for plants, crops and most animals. And I am not convinced that man has as much influence over climate change as many think. There are some seriously smart climate scientists who shape my opinions. Like Judith Curry and Richard Lindzen, just to name 2. I do believe we are in a warming cycle. And I believe we're entering into a cooling cycle for the next 20-30 years based on the solar minimum.


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




1. Sorry, but your source link "Pets on Mom.com" isn't some place I'm going to put a lot of faith in. My link above (seaturles.org) says males return also. Here's another link (conserveturtles.org) that state the same thing. "When it is their time to mate and nest, both males and females leave their feeding grounds and migrate to the nesting beach." Click to follow link...

2. Ok, so I need to choose between a scientific study that has collected actual data or an anonymous internet person's theory based on, um, not sure. Hmmm, that a tough one.

3-7. That's the thing though, all female, over a large period of time will have an effect which they are speculating will not be good for the local area. Also, see #1. Males return as well. The article never once stated anything about "global population decline", so I'm not sure where that's coming from. That seems to be a strawman argument.

8. Where do you see that? I quoted the article, so please show me where that is.

9. Seems that #9 has dropped off.


Growing up in Marylander, I never saw half of the animals I see regularly today... hummingbirds, Canadian geese, eagles, deer, coyotes, bear, foxes, owls, pelicans, turkeys, etc.

marylander

I'm not sure why you didn't see those animals and birds when you were young, but I don't think any of those are new to Maryland.

In any case, I'm going to bow out of this discussion. I'm by no means a sea turtle expert, so we've reached my limited amount of knowledge. I saw an enumerated list and I love enumerated lists. Laughing smiley Sorry. Laughing smiley

John


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




All of the animals but turkeys and owls are helped by us. Don't worry you are probably right there is nothing to worry about. Cuz we will all be dead when it gets bad.


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




Don't worry you are probably right there is nothing to worry about. Cuz we will all be dead when it gets bad.

TOP DECK TIME


As much as I’d like to rally against this train of thought...it’s kinda the truth.

Climate change and global warming isn’t really a problem if you’re 50+

You’ll be dead and gone by the time the effects have major societal impacts.

Couple that with the fact that we live in the wealthiest nation on earth with the the strongest military this planet has ever seen, and well....

As long as you subscribe to the theory that your kids will figure it out, then this issue isn’t really one you should care about.


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




Don't worry you are probably right there is nothing to worry about. Cuz we will all be dead when it gets bad.

TOP DECK TIME


As much as I’d like to rally against this train of thought...it’s kinda the truth.

Climate change and global warming isn’t really a problem if you’re 50+

You’ll be dead and gone by the time the effects have major societal impacts.

Couple that with the fact that we live in the wealthiest nation on earth with the the strongest military this planet has ever seen, and well....

As long as you subscribe to the theory that your kids will figure it out, then this issue isn’t really one you should care about.

Aliphatic


Actually, I think it's a problem no one can fix because we aren't the cause of it.

In terms of pollution and disruption of wildlife habitat, man is a huge problem and we can do something - that's where I would like to focus our efforts on. And that is what is responsible for so much more wildlife I regularly encounter here in Md, to use my personal experience and change over 50 years. Man's efforts to correct past mistakes and make the environment better for us and animals has already had major benefits and we need to keep at it, especially in terms of managing the ocean. In the Chespeake Bay, man's efforts have made huge improvements in water quality and restrictions against over-fishing enabling crab, oyster and fish (particularly the rock fish) to bounce back. We need to keep it up and extend those efforts to the rest of the ocean.

In terms of man's contribution to warming, that's an entirely different story. It's there. Humans do breathe and burn fossil fuels. But we are not a major driver of warming. The sun, the oceans and volcanic activity are far more powerful forces. Carbon dioxide makes up only .03% of the atmosphere - 400 parts per million. And of that, natural causes unrelated to man make up 96.25% of CO2. That makes our total human contribution to CO2 a minuscule .0009%. None of this is disputed. And of that component, it's increased due to additional human presence and fossil fuel burning by only 1/3 or .0003% since the start of the industrial revolution. So the ugly truth is, no matter how much we cut back on fossil fuels or stop making babies in developing countries (to bring in the latest proposal from the radical few out there), we can't move the needle of warming. It's a fact. We are experiencing changes in our planet that have cycled on and off since the beginning. Technically speaking, we're still recovering from the last Little Ice Age which ended just 170 years ago, a minor blip in time. Point being, our best and only plan is to use our brains to adapt to the changes that are happening which is what every creature, turtles included, have to do to survive.

The problem is we need to focus on the right battle. Focus on adapting to change. We can't control it.


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




Dramatic fast climate change has happened many times , much faster than now. Volcano eruptions, large and small asteroid strikes, solar events. All dramatically changed the temp in weeks or days and lasted for decades or longer. Turtles did just fine.


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




1. Sorry, but your source link "Pets on Mom.com" isn't some place I'm going to put a lot of faith in. My link above (seaturles.org) says males return also. Here's another link (conserveturtles.org) that state the same thing. "When it is their time to mate and nest, both males and females leave their feeding grounds and migrate to the nesting beach." Click to follow link...

2. Ok, so I need to choose between a scientific study that has collected actual data or an anonymous internet person's theory based on, um, not sure. Hmmm, that a tough one.

3-7. That's the thing though, all female, over a large period of time will have an effect which they are speculating will not be good for the local area. Also, see #1. Males return as well. The article never once stated anything about "global population decline", so I'm not sure where that's coming from. That seems to be a strawman argument.

8. Where do you see that? I quoted the article, so please show me where that is.


John

J4yDubs


John - the article states "But because Earth is warming faster than the turtles can adapt, their eggs are hatching as all female, if they hatch at all."

That's the unsubstantiated statement I'm referring to. It's drawing an unproven conclusion. And that statement is complete doom and gloom, implying Florida turtle population collapse.

And with respect to male behaviors, the main point of that is that there are males available to breed with even when there are more females being born. Whether from other areas who happen to be near the nesting area during mating season or from previous generations of males who are long-lived, or even based on the highly suspect conclusions that only females are being produced, which should have been qualified with something like "based on our limited sample of ~100 eggs from ~80,000 nests in Florida each year".

And swinging it back to the most important point of all. The global population of turtles continues to grow at an encouraging rate. Global warming is not an existential threat to sea turtles, a point the article completely avoids because it's one of many intended to scare people with less than all the facts. Anything to keep the funds flowing.


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




It's not the absolute level of carbon in the atmosphere and the sources of that absolute level that is the problem. It is the increase in the level of carbon in the atmosphere,the rate of increase of carbon in the atmosphere, and the source of that carbon increase. That is the battle to focus on.


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




Dang it, drawn back in...


John - the article states "But because Earth is warming faster than the turtles can adapt, their eggs are hatching as all female, if they hatch at all."

That's the unsubstantiated statement I'm referring to. It's drawing an unproven conclusion. And that statement is complete doom and gloom, implying Florida turtle population collapse.

marylander

I don't see a problem with that statement? The Earth is warming and their study has show all female for the past 10 years that have hatched. I get it that you don't believe the study, but I have yet to see you post any counter points that would disqualify it. I guess the contention is can the turtles adapt. I'll agree that the statement could have been worded better. That statement wasn't from the biologist though, the news person wrote that.


And with respect to male behaviors, the main point of that is that there are males available to breed with even when there are more females being born. Whether from other areas who happen to be near the nesting area during mating season or from previous generations of males who are long-lived, or even based on the highly suspect conclusions that only females are being produced, which should have been qualified with something like "based on our limited sample of ~100 eggs from ~80,000 nests in Florida each year".

marylander

This is just a quick news story. You'd quickly lose your audience if you included all the information from the study. Bite sized chunks is all much people will accept. You can be sure that any study that is publish will include all the numbers (and then some) that you're looking for. But then you'd probably just claim that they are spending to much money gathering that data.


And swinging it back to the most important point of all. The global population of turtles continues to grow at an encouraging rate. Global warming is not an existential threat to sea turtles, a point the article completely avoids because it's one of many intended to scare people with less than all the facts. Anything to keep the funds flowing.

marylander

And there it is...


In the Chespeake Bay, man's efforts have made huge improvements in water quality and restrictions against over-fishing enabling crab, oyster and fish (particularly the rock fish) to bounce back. We need to keep it up and extend those efforts to the rest of the ocean.

marylander

Ok, so this is actually my point from before that you rebuffed. Why do you care about the Chesapeake Bay when most of that wild life is thriving elsewhere? All that really matters is the global population right?

John


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




I’m at my camp where the hemlocks are being destroyed, the Ash are dying, the chestnuts are gone. Deer ticks with lyme and other dieases are spreading, our deer have cwd, our creeks are choked with japanese knotweed. Our native oysters are being replace with invasive mussels and clams. All this sucks, and most are due to globalization. Americans have to have their cheap crap from China, who by the way emit much more pollution and co2 than the USA, despite what invasives they bring in.
Not to mention the chemicals and plastics we pollute with every day.
And a possible slight rise in sea level and increase in temp somewhere way in the future is the biggest issue we face?


RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




This is the climate change equivalent of the recent national politics hijacking. Movie theater butter or keep it simple and lightly salted? That's the real problem.




RE: The future of turtles may be in danger.




This is the climate change equivalent of the recent national politics hijacking. Movie theater butter or keep it simple and lightly salted? That's the real problem.

Mstaszew


Thanks, Mstaszew. These threads devolve into long diatribes by the same 3 or 4 people who are probably the only ones who read each others' posts. Bring on the Butter Roast!


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