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"OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG

RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG




Since this has gone off topic to national and global news, can I get four other members to flag the original post? Big grin


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RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG




marylander, you can write whatever words you want, but it doesn't make them true. It is universally accepted that climate change is real and man is accelerating it. Tortuga John is not wrong here. You can choose to ignore it, but that won't make it go away. You can continue to read the the denier words, but it's funny how those keep changing to keep up with actual science. No worries, science will continue.

miinx said it best. Science doesn't care what you think. It's only cares about what actually is. If something comes along that gives more information and changes something, science will accept it. It's actually a great model to follow.

John

J4yDubs


"Universally"? Not even close. Many of the best scientists don't believe man is a major factor in climate change. And gorebullists such as yourself hide in denial the very facts that undermine the position or worse, like NOAA, they actual change the data to support their theory. Talk about scandalous!! You can hide behind rhetoric, but the reality is that less than half of the US population believes like you. We can read the many articles and studies that disprove man made warming and we see the failed predictions as proof the argument is false. In short, we have confidence that we're on far stronger scientific ground than alarmists.


RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG




marylander, you can write whatever words you want, but it doesn't make them true. It is universally accepted that climate change is real and man is accelerating it. Tortuga John is not wrong here. You can choose to ignore it, but that won't make it go away. You can continue to read the the denier words, but it's funny how those keep changing to keep up with actual science. No worries, science will continue.

miinx said it best. Science doesn't care what you think. It's only cares about what actually is. If something comes along that gives more information and changes something, science will accept it. It's actually a great model to follow.

John

J4yDubs


I find it interesting how you refer to "Science" as a noun, and label those who disagree as "deniers." Science is a process of theory, investigation, data, proof and conclusions. When the theory is settled, the investigation is funded by special interests, the data and proof is manipulated, and the conclusions are tainted at best, it is no wonder that reasonable people question the truth, the data, and the actual effect on Eastern North Carolina.
Certain trustworthy Programs aside, "Science" was politicized for profit or gain long ago via grants with prescribed outcomes to justify the continued funding and income stream, especially at NOAA and universities.
And, should anyone disagree with this political "science,", they are branded as deniers and other epithets.
There are a lot of smart people on both sides of this debate regarding the NC Banks subsiding, shifting, and migrating.
Simply dismissing one intelligent, thoughtful side of the discussion because you disagree it is "settled" is antithetical to the scientific approach, and therefore renders your observations and opinions questionable at best.


RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG





Cold hearted orb that rules the night,
Removes the colours from our sight.
Red is grey and yellow white.
But we decide which is right.
And which is an illusion?

mdobx


Now that takes me back to high school, when I wanted to be "just a singer in a rock and roll band." smiley


RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG




… Now that takes me back to high school, when …


That was the second song on the 70s station on the TV while I was exercising in the basement yesterday. They didn't have the poem at the end … which is what I was waiting for. Confused smiley

First song when I turned on the TV is something my wife hates … Dream Weaver. Theeth smiley


RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG




Sea level rises faster in some locations than others due to "land subsidence", the sinking of land. This occurs more in coastal areas than bedrock areas. Why? It is caused by the compaction of sediments caused by natural effects and groundwater withdrawal.


RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG





Sea level rises faster in some locations than others due to "land subsidence", the sinking of land. This occurs more in coastal areas than bedrock areas. Why? It is caused by the compaction of sediments caused by natural effects and groundwater withdrawal.
Robert


Agree and think since the natural forces of land subsidence is the primary cause we should cease referring to this natural, non-man made effect as "sea level rise" and call it what it is - subsidence. It would take the political drama out of the di$cu$$ion.

Please note that hatteras island water association water is provided by reverse osmosis of seawater, not deepwell sources, and that "groundwater" is not drawn anywhere I am aware of as a potable water source.



RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG




The global mean sea level is rising. The annual rate of rise over the past 20 years has been twice the average speed of the preceding 80 years. This is established scientific fact.

Regardless of anyone's beliefs, the planet is warming. This leads to thermal expansion in the water. Glaciers are melting. Perhaps we should be less worried about political statements and just deal with it.

One thing is for sure, insurance companies are paying attention.....follow the money folks.


RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG




The global mean sea level is rising. The annual rate of rise over the past 20 years has been twice the average speed of the preceding 80 years. This is established scientific fact.

Regardless of anyone's beliefs, the planet is warming. This leads to thermal expansion in the water. Glaciers are melting. Perhaps we should be less worried about political statements and just deal with it.

One thing is for sure, insurance companies are paying attention.....follow the money folks.

Tortuga John


Agree - follow the money and you will find the obfuscated truth from the prophets trying to profit.
Do me a favor - pour your Kool-Aid over a glass of ice cubes and mark the liquid level on your glass. Allow the ice to melt, and the Kool-Aid to come to room temperature. Did the liquid level rise, stay the same, or lower? Please report your results and enjoy the Kool-Aid. smiley with shades


RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG




I often wonder if around 15,000 years ago, at the retreat of the last ice age, if there were Neanderthals throwing their arms up and yelling the ice is melting and the sea level is rising? (I'm sure they blamed the excessive heat and smoke from their cooking fires for melting the glaciers.)
Yabba dabba doo!


RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG




Every major government, our own military and ALL of it's resources (the largest by far in the world), every major scientific group..... essentially everyone with any reasonable information agrees that climate change is real and humans are contributing to it in a major way. Do you know who Jim Bridenstine is? He is the current head of NASA who was also a long time denier. Go check his very recent story out. Ocean levels are rising. Fact. The rate of rise has been increasing in the last several decades. Fact. It is expected that it will continue to rise at rates even higher than now. NOT FACT, but educated opinion, I'll go with NOAA on this one.

Every major country, every major military, every major corporation with skin in the game are planning for increased sea level rise. It seems to me to be reasonable for the OBX to do the same. I'm sure they already are.....

Tortuga John



Sorry, but I'll go with NASA, (Via Church and White), on this one, which shows the trend to be quite linear.


See below graph.

Citation

Church, J. A., and N. J. White (2011), Sea-Level Rise from the Late 19th to the Early 21st Century, Surveys in Geophysics, 32(4-5), 585-602, doi:
http://dx.doi.org/10.1007/s10712-011-9119-1.

https://sealevel.nasa.gov/publications/527






RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG




Just a simple question, does anyone doubt sea levels are rising? I don't care about the reason, I don't know the reason. I'm just asking if anyone doesn't believe sea levels are rising??


RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG




Just a simple question, does anyone doubt sea levels are rising? I don't care about the reason, I don't know the reason. I'm just asking if anyone doesn't believe sea levels are rising??

beachbumz


No doubt, for the last 15,000 years. Anybody who studied geology, (Or even high school earth science) knows that the sea level has risen, and fallen, repeatedly for the last 500 million years or so. Some time in the future there will be another ice age and sea levels will again drop.


RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG




I believe in sea level change, climate change, magnetic polar shifts, dinosaurs .........and maybe bigfoot.




RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG




Like a lot of articles in the mainstream these days, this is nothing more than a propaganda piece. I've been a test engineer for 20 years and I can tell you that data can be manipulated to draw whatever kind of conclusion you want from it. I've seen it happen many times firsthand. It's unethical, but unfortunately there are more than a few practitioners. I personally find it funny how a lot of the so-called champions of man-made climate change are the same ones cruising around in their private jets (I guess "their" emissions don't count!).

That said, sea levels have risen and fallen for millennia. It's a natural phenomenon. Shorelines erode and are rebuilt. Inlets are cut and filled in. Islands form and disappear. I laugh when people use temperature data going back to 1870 as a basis for their claims. If the Earth is billions of years old, 148 years of recorded data is insignificant. Anyone who has taken a basic course in statistics can tell you that.

Some people even claim that the increase in storm activity much of the country has seen over the last decade or so is related to man-made causes. Part of the reason that some people are worried the sky is falling is because many of them came of age during a time period when there was a bit of a lull in serious storm activity, and they accepted it as the norm because it's what they were used to. On the Outer Banks, the 1970s through the early 2000s were relatively quiet in terms of devastating storms compared to previous time periods. Isabel in 2003 seemed to usher in a new era where the area started seeing more devastating storms. By the time Isabel hit, there weren't that many people around who could remember the hurricanes of 1933 or 1944 and the destruction left in their wake. The 1899 hurricane and those before it were gone from living memory by then. I can only imagine what was going through the small number of residents' minds when the storms of 1846 opened Oregon and Hatteras Inlets.

One reason we take note of more destruction today is because the shorelines of America are grossly overdeveloped. I first went to the Outer Banks in 1984 and I hardly recognize it anymore, save for areas like the northeastern part of Ocracoke Island. There was no road to Corolla then. There wasn't much along NC-12 between Nags Head and Buxton other than some smallish houses here and there. Some of the side streets of Nags Head and Kill Devil Hills didn't have much in the way of a hard driving surface. Now, areas like Salvo, Waves, Avon, Frisco, etc. remind me of how Nags Head was 30-35 years ago.

Sorry to ramble, but the bottom line is the ocean is going to do what it's going to do and there's nothing anyone can do about it.


RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG





Do me a favor - pour your Kool-Aid over a glass of ice cubes and mark the liquid level on your glass. Allow the ice to melt, and the Kool-Aid to come to room temperature. Did the liquid level rise, stay the same, or lower? Please report your results and enjoy the Kool-Aid. smiley with shades

hatterasnc

I'm surprised no one did your test. The water level stayed the same, but the Kool-Aid tasted terrible. Way to watered down.

Now, considering most glaciers are land based and their affect on the sea level is minimal until they either reach the sea or melt, I propose a different test.

Take a glass or bowl with a wide rim. Place your Kool-Aid in the glass and mark the water level. Now place the ice on the rim and allow it to melt into the glass. What happened to the liquid level? You can also drink the Kool-Aid, but don't expect much. Big grin

John


RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG





Do me a favor - pour your Kool-Aid over a glass of ice cubes and mark the liquid level on your glass. Allow the ice to melt, and the Kool-Aid to come to room temperature. Did the liquid level rise, stay the same, or lower? Please report your results and enjoy the Kool-Aid. smiley with shades

hatterasnc

I'm surprised no one did your test. The water level stayed the same, but the Kool-Aid tasted terrible. Way to watered down.

Now, considering most glaciers are land based and their affect on the sea level is minimal until they either reach the sea or melt, I propose a different test.

Take a glass or bowl with a wide rim. Place your Kool-Aid in the glass and mark the water level. Now place the ice on the rim and allow it to melt into the glass. What happened to the liquid level? You can also drink the Kool-Aid, but don't expect much. Big grin

John

J4yDubs


interesting, although I disagree with your premise of glacier ice being land based...perhaps back millions of years ago when they were excavating the great lakes and Minnesota's 10,000 lakes dropping through Canada before receding, perhaps. I thought we were discussing Arctic and Antarctic ice, which is course is waterborne and being cited as the cause for sea level rise/land subsidence. and the photo ops for Polar Bears being stranded and such.
I shall try this experiment with the addition of a salted rim margarita vice Kool AID, and report results if I can remember them.

Here's another "science" experiment in the meantime. Take a medium saucepan, fill it halfway with water, put it on a stove burner at low heat and allow it to warm, eventually boiling. Record the time until the water level/nucleate boiling causes it to boil over. Empty the pan, allow to cool and refill to same level. Now, take a blowtorch at similar low heat and heat the water evenly from above until (if) it boils over. Record the time (if it does boil over?).

What happens to the water when heated from below? What happens to the water when heated from above? The oceans are an amazing heat sink when heated from above, and since global warming doesn't heat from below...Which is the ocean warming scam, and which is not?


RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG





Here's another "science" experiment in the meantime. Take a medium saucepan, fill it halfway with water, put it on a stove burner at low heat and allow it to warm, eventually boiling. Record the time until the water level/nucleate boiling causes it to boil over. Empty the pan, allow to cool and refill to same level. Now, take a blowtorch at similar low heat and heat the water evenly from above until (if) it boils over. Record the time (if it does boil over?).

What happens to the water when heated from below? What happens to the water when heated from above? The oceans are an amazing heat sink when heated from above, and since global warming doesn't heat from below...Which is the ocean warming scam, and which is not?

hatterasnc


Since the metal pan is acting as a conductor, I'm not sure what your experiment proves? The heat from below is almost certainly higher than the heat from above also. I guess it does prove that we should use metal if we want to heat something. Using a clay pot won't work as well which is why we've moved on to metal. I do love creating clay bowls though and have even taking "wilding" classes to learn more. Half of my bowls didn't make it through heating because I kinda suck at working the clay properly. I'm 1/4th Cherokee, but you wouldn't know it from my skills.

Sorry, I'm not sure where this topic is going now. Global warming? Sea Level rise? If you still deny both, we're probably not going to get much further. I do have to say, I greatly enjoy your wit and humor hatterasnc. Thank you.

John


RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG




I will try the experiments suggested by hatterasnc and J4yDubs when i come off the beach but currently i am in the middle of developjng a new theory as i watch the ocean today off Ramp 55.
A few hours ago lounging on the beach, unbaited fishing line in the water and enjoying the relative isolation of changover day, i noticed the sea level rise in front of my very eyes. Taking my polarized sunglasses off i stood at the shoreline and pondered this observation for some time before placing a spare pvc fishing rod holder at the top of the surf surge line. I concluded that the sea level was rising at approximately one foot an hour when my wife showed up. I excitedly explained my observation and she, being the scientific type, tried to convince me it had something to do with the moon of all things. I promply called BS on her verbage and told her I was not a lunatic.
I got her a chair out of the back of the truck, grabbed two of the cheapest beers available at the Red and White from my cooler, and we settled down to watch with concern as the ghost crabs moved back and forth, obviously panicking with this new threat.
It was on the second beer that i first noticed that the sea level was no longer rising, and was enjoying the third beer when my wife agreed that the sea level was actually receding. My mind was reeling with the limitless explanations for this change in sea level.
Most of you are probably coming to the same conclusion that i am and understand my need to continue this experiment......regardless of the wind and rain picking up and my wife's whinning about dinner. Fortunately for me and science i bought a 12 pack and will continue this experiment and get back to you with my observations.


RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG




Now that's an experiment I can get behind lowtide. I might even have to do it at least twice a day, for science and all. Thank you.

John


RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG





Here's another "science" experiment in the meantime. Take a medium saucepan, fill it halfway with water, put it on a stove burner at low heat and allow it to warm, eventually boiling. Record the time until the water level/nucleate boiling causes it to boil over. Empty the pan, allow to cool and refill to same level. Now, take a blowtorch at similar low heat and heat the water evenly from above until (if) it boils over. Record the time (if it does boil over?).

What happens to the water when heated from below? What happens to the water when heated from above? The oceans are an amazing heat sink when heated from above, and since global warming doesn't heat from below...Which is the ocean warming scam, and which is not?

hatterasnc


Since the metal pan is acting as a conductor, I'm not sure what your experiment proves? The heat from below is almost certainly higher than the heat from above also. I guess it does prove that we should use metal if we want to heat something. Using a clay pot won't work as well which is why we've moved on to metal. I do love creating clay bowls though and have even taking "wilding" classes to learn more. Half of my bowls didn't make it through heating because I kinda suck at working the clay properly. I'm 1/4th Cherokee, but you wouldn't know it from my skills.

Sorry, I'm not sure where this topic is going now. Global warming? Sea Level rise? If you still deny both, we're probably not going to get much further. I do have to say, I greatly enjoy your wit and humor hatterasnc. Thank you.

John

J4yDubs


see there you go going off topic to throwing clay pots and stuff. metal, clay, conduction...who has time for this?
dude, this is simple thermodynamics. Sorry, I know that's a long word.
sea level is rising and receding, as proven by the lowtide theory, which I find to be remarkable in its depth and breadth. Future NOAA funding should be allocated to the lowtide theory. And bigfoots (bigfeet?).


RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG





Do me a favor - pour your Kool-Aid over a glass of ice cubes and mark the liquid level on your glass. Allow the ice to melt, and the Kool-Aid to come to room temperature. Did the liquid level rise, stay the same, or lower? Please report your results and enjoy the Kool-Aid. smiley with shades

hatterasnc


Sorry. This experiment has nothing to do with climate change and sea level rise. If you want to do the experiment properly. Try floating ice in salt water. When it melts you will see that the level does rise.

There are two problems with the pretending the above experiment relates to sea level rise:

1. An issue (on planet earth) is that not all of the melting ice is currently in the ocean, so as it melts it adds to the volume of the ocean, and hence the water level will rise..

2. The theory of water displacement (archimedies priinciple) is based on weight, not volume. The reason why performing the experiment with salt water results in an increase in water level is that the density of salt water is greater than the density of fresh water. So the dilution of the salt water with fresh water lowers the salinity. The lower the salinity, the lower density and the larger volume. And.. just in case you were wondering ocean ice is nearly salt free, because of a process called brine rejection (you can look that up)

Unlike some others please don't take my word for any of this. There's so much bad information that gets spread on the internet, including some that has been included in this thread. You can only sort out the good information from the bad if you take the time to look stuff up yourself!

Anyway.. you CAN do this experiment at home.. And if you have a really accurate scale you can also prove to yourself that the same weight of salt water has slightly less volume than fresh water.



RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG






Here's another "science" experiment in the meantime. Take a medium saucepan, fill it halfway with water, put it on a stove burner at low heat and allow it to warm, eventually boiling. Record the time until the water level/nucleate boiling causes it to boil over. Empty the pan, allow to cool and refill to same level. Now, take a blowtorch at similar low heat and heat the water evenly from above until (if) it boils over. Record the time (if it does boil over?).

What happens to the water when heated from below? What happens to the water when heated from above? The oceans are an amazing heat sink when heated from above, and since global warming doesn't heat from below...Which is the ocean warming scam, and which is not?

...later...

see there you go going off topic to throwing clay pots and stuff. metal, clay, conduction...who has time for this?
dude, this is simple thermodynamics. Sorry, I know that's a long word.

hatterasnc


This experiment is also irrelevant with regard to climate change analysis, ocean rise, etc. It certainly does nothing to prove the existence of an ocean warming scam.

The stated experiment relates only to heating water in different ways. In the blow torch scenario most of the heat energy from the flame gets lost to heating the air (which has a much lower specific heat capacity as compared to the water). Also because the flame is being applied only to a much smaller surface fraction of the liquid, as compared to more evenly heated metal pan used in the first scenario that is in contact with a much larger surface area of the liquid.

So yes dude.. it IS simple thermodynamics. The heat sink characteristics of water (it's ability to absorb energy) are irrelevant to the experiment since it doesn't change the fact that it requires putting the same amount of energy into the water to get it boiling in each case. The experiment shows only that there are more and/or less efficient ways to do that energy transfer.

So it's not clear to me what point you were trying to make? But FYI climate scientists are aware of the energy transfer characteristics of heating ocean water from both solar radiation and air, so those effects are taken into account.



RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG




Like I said: Sea levels have been rising, and falling, for millions of years. We are inconsequential in this equation.


RE: "OBX Getting Swallowed Up" according to NG




The Arctic - same location 103 years ago and today...